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Jim interviews author, experts and experiences about UFO phenomena in this PLUS ONLY podcast. For Jim's other PLUS shows, go to JimHaroldPlus.com

Jan 19, 2022

Ufologist Ryan Stacey talks to us about his efforts to catalog the experiences of those who have seen UFOs and who've had other paranormal encounters.

TRANSCRIPT

Please note we do not guarantee 100% transcript accuracy. The below reflects a best effort. Thank you for your understanding.

Jim Harold
UFOs. Are they aliens? Government secret projects? The imaginings of disturbed individuals, or just outright hoaxes? We're here to find out. Welcome to Jim Harold's UFO Encounters.

Welcome to UFO Encounters. I am Jim Harold, and so glad to be with you once again. And we have a great guest to talk about UFOs, and we're talking about Ryan Stacey. He is a private investigator, citizen journalist, and an active Canadian disclosure ufologist. He is also a private paranormal / psychogenic investigator. And he is the creator of the Ultraspectrum Classification System, and founder of The Experiencer Support Association. And we are so glad to have him with us today. And Ryan, thank you for joining us on UFO Encounters.

Ryan Stacey
Thank you for having me.

Jim Harold
So how did you get started in all of this? You know, it's not the typical- I guess being a paranormal podcaster is not the- and you're also a podcaster by the way, but I'm a full time paranormal podcaster which is a, you know, a unique job description. How did you get into this? Because it is kind of a unique field to be in.

Ryan Stacey
Yeah, well to- to make it simple. The word, "paranormal," it just means anything not normal. So like, u- ufology or UFOs is just kind of like a line drawn in the sand to separate, you know, certain people in this, what we call the "Ultraspectrum." So, I started off as paranormal. I'm still paranormal by definition. And that has always been inclusive of ufology. But in order to establish credibility, I suppose in- in mainstream media, it needs to be defined as separate currently, until we're able to bridge that gap and bring ufolo- bring paranormal into mainstream, as well. So I've told this many, many times in many, many podcasts. And my origin story, I always try to summarize it the best I can each time. But essentially, I started off as an owned and operated private, investigating firm. So, someone had hired me to locate their son that went missing, and they believed him to be abducted by aliens. And through that investigation, I end up learning that they joined Scientology, so there was something in that- in that circle, but not necessarily the truth as the- as the family had believed. Then through that, I was in those circles, in those channels, looking for this person. And then it's, you know, long story short, I got eventually involved with MUFON because somebody had-- was upset about not getting the- the manual in time. So there was like a potential fraud claim. So, I investigated that to assist, and then that got cleared up, and then I got dragged into investigations with the MUFON Canada. So then, I would fast track all the way through that, I guess. I mean, so many things happened: field investigator, Assistant Director of, sorry, Director of Ontario. I am Canadian, by the way, there is so much drama that- that I've spent with MUFON. But the whole point of it is; I was at the top. I was the National Director, I'm sorry, the National Chief Investigator for investigations in Canada. I was also the International Field Investigator Trainer. So, I was responsible for teaching everyone how to investigate UFOs. And then along my career, being a private investigator, holding a private company, as well, and investigations, information was divulged to me about the- the-- what was alleged at the time, sexual activity with Jan Harzan. So, I had reported that to the police, and later on, that was proven to be true. So then, that made it a little bit hard and difficult for me to remain in MUFON, but yet, it didn't come to surface. So, eventually, it was forced out. And then- and then the police made their arrests, and all that other fun stuff. And so that has nothing to do... That's kind of how I got into the "now," because, along the whole way, and of course I'm paraphrasing and summarizing this... Is I-- There was little and minimal help for anyone who was an experiencer, so for the witnesses. And there was absolutely zero assistance for anyone that had an encounter of anything that did not involve a picture or a video involving a machine in the sky. So there is- there is this void of- of lack of assistance that needed to be filled. And- and I couldn't turn away from that. And then as a result, that's what The Experiencer Support Association turned into. And here I am now, talking about all all those things.

Jim Harold
Now, take me through the process. If somebody goes to the Experiencer Support Association website, and I'm looking at T-E-S-A-C-A-N dot org (tesacan.org) right now, is that available both in the US and Canada? Or just in-- There's also T-E-S-A C-A-N dot org (tesacan.org)? It's available to US and Canada. Is that correct?

Ryan Stacey
Yeah, it's available to anyone. And TESACAN essentially, which is TESA Canada, because originally I wanted to just establish the Canadian element which is- which has been lacking in, especially in, American ufology. And, but now recently, TESA is now international. So the actual-- "TESA International Media Incorporated," is the- is the full name of that. But, we help everyone from UK, New Zealand, Australia.

Jim Harold
Now, if somebody goes to your website, and they report. How-- Take us through that process. And then what is the interaction with them? How does that work?

Ryan Stacey
Perfect. I like this question. So if you go to tesacan.org, forward slash reporting system (tesacan.org/reportingsystem), it'll bring you to- to the- to that as well. So it will ask you what's called, "conditional logic." Logical questions. So, it will ask you specific things about the event. And depending on your answers, you only be asked what's relevant. So, you're not going to answer a whole bunch of- millions of questions that aren't relevant, like MUFON had. So, and with that, it'll splinter it based on your archetypical belief of what the event may be. And what I mean by that: if you think it's a ghost, then you're going to be asked specific questions around that. And that stigma, or that- that archetype, so that we to help repackage it, by the end, in our new classification system. So, you have the ability to report any experience. That could be UFOs, Paranormal, it could be- it could be crop circles, it could be cryptid, pair cryptids and Bigfoot or, you know, Dogman, or any anything like that. Anything you see, that is unusual, that can't be explained. Residual evidence, such as crop circles, or implants, or markings. So, anything you can think of that's considered paranormal can be investigated through-- reported through this report. Once that's done, and through that whole process, you will be asked specific questions that, you know, that kind of indicators. Like, what do you want to do with it? Us to do with it? What- what kind of help are you seeking? So, you kind of really explain to us in great detail what it is that you're in need of, and what you're hoping to achieve by making a report. And then, that allows us to- to assist that experiencer in a customized way. As soon as it's processed, you get a copy of it. So it's- it's-- you automatic-- without us doing anything, it's been written, it's been documented, there's proof, and you also have a contract between the two of us, that clearly outlines what you would like us to do. And as long as we do those things, the goal is-- the expectation is, that you're going to be satisfied. And so, when we get into the investigative process, you're assigned a number for your case. So that remains anonymous. And you can- you can choose to be anonymous or not, it's up to you. And even if you choose to not be anonymous, you're still anonymous, we protect that always. Anyways, the investigative process is unique, because I use you, through the process. I don't need to go to your place, and put boots on the ground, and do a whole bunch of things. I, you know, you took a photo at nighttime, and I need to see your place at daytime, I'm going to ask you-- I'm going to give you very specific directions on how to get me daytime photos. So that way, I can review and analyze from here. So when I walk you through that process, and bring you through all these other things, and we break it all down, there's a little bit of a trauma assessment. And you kind of-- you do that yourself. And if there's any indicators or markers that some sort of, I guess, referral, for any anxiety or- or PTSD or stress-removing pseudo-sciences that we could recommend, such as Reiki or yoga or anything; anything that helps heal the mind, we might, we would, introduce you to some programs. We have one that's called, "Experiencers Anonymous." That happens every Saturday, either on the Observation Deck or via Zoom. And you can sign up for that: tesacan.org/EA. So then you can kind of just deal and talk about your experiences amongst your peers in a private setting. And just- just get comfortable with talking about it while the investigation is happening. Or vice versa. You start there, and then eventually, you're like, "You know what? This is something substantial, and I want to make a report," So, it's a bit of that. So, as soon as that's done, and I repackage it, and I present you with my report, which is also prepped to be used for the "Ultraspectrum Paranormal Report," which is my annual report on on that. You kind of review it, you'll see that things are redacted, you'll see that information is only relevant to the case, there's no personal stuff or identifiers: so just facts. And then we come to a conclusion together. So if- if- if I-- if it's labeled as "identified," it could still be unidentified. But the whole point is that me and the experiencer, agree that it's high probability that it's likely something known, and then we can close it. We don't need to look at it any further, because some experiencers have multiple experiences. So-- and that also allows... it makes it easier for the experiencer to accept the possibility, that it's a known thing, or something else entirely, when you involve them in the process. MUFON protocol has always been just tell them what you think, and if they don't like it: too bad. And there's a lot of social issues with that. And there's a lot of anger that- that is directly caused, because of actions like that. So this process takes a little bit more time. I don't need to have a million cases, I just need to have you know, like, you know, a few, and really work with- really work with them to get good data. Then I compile it into all these measurements, in this report. And then I establish trends and statistics, and- and then I make predictions on what the ideal candidate or experiencer or may be, that is able to exhibit these specific types of phenomenons. And by which means and by which methods. So, the only way I can connect-- and that allows me, and that's why we use the Ultraspectrum Classification System to repackage what you think it is, and break it down into categories that make sense for all parties. So as an example, for UFO orbs and- and paranormal orbs, essentially, they're the same thing, lights in the sky, we would call that category a "sensory display." And we would group that as aerial activity, which brings both parties to the table, that we can agree that this is activity that's in the sky. And then we can kind of splinter that into UFO or paranormal activity, depending on the archetype in which we're looking at. And then, define whether or not that's machine or light. And if it's a machine, then perhaps the archetype, "UFO," is properly used. If it's light, then perhaps, "UAP," needs to be used. But that's up to you to decide. We can agree that this is a machine, this- this may be a machine or high probability. And we can agree that on a high probability, that this is light. And therefore, when we do a further study on all that sample in those categories, we'll be able to do better research in those streamlines- streamlining it. So-- and also with that as the experiencer, if you are one of the cases that are unknown, you will be assigned an experiencer ID number. And with that, that becomes your number. You get a card, all these other things, it's completely private. If you ever come to any of our events, you show that card, you'll get something for free, or you get-- you'll get special access, because you participated in this. And we've been able to identify-- have not been able to identify what it is that- that you've reported. And then with that, it allows us to tes-- do further tests and further studies within these groups of individuals to try to find out what they have in common. And so far, what I'm learning that they have on common- in common is that there may be another place, you know, either like, what we call the Ultraspectrum which is the ether, or- or the Interdimension, if you will. And what we have, is a variant of people that use a various-- that have a variety of methods that they use, in order to get to this place. And that's what I'm trying to- to establish is that there's- there's evidence that supports that there-- this place exists. But, I'm learning more about who is able to get there. And once I'm able to learn who can get there, then we'll be able to actually make contact with a- with a more controlled sample. That's- that's- that's it in a nutshell.

Jim Harold
Now, here's a question, because I sense a similar thought here between us. When I started the Paranormal Podcast in 2005, I called it "paranormal." And to my mind "paranormal" included UFOs, cryptids, ghosts, all of it.

Ryan Stacey
Mhm.

Jim Harold
And as time went on, you know, people said, "Oh, you do a ghost show." And it's like, "Yeah, that's part of it. And that's not the whole part of it." So it's a frustration to me when people say quote, "paranormal," that they just mean guys running around investigating ghosts in black T-shirts.

Ryan Stacey
Mmm

Jim Harold
That's- that's what people think, and they-- that's all they think it is. And it's really annoying to me, to be honest. Not that there's anything wrong with paranormal investigation and all of those things, that's fine. But it's not the whole ball of wax. It's one very kind of small part of it, in my mind at least. And it's- it's become kind of this buzzword for ghost shows and that kind of thing. So-

Ryan Stacey
I agree with you.

Jim Harold
So let me- let me ask you this. What is your definition of "paranormal?" How, wide do you cast your net? Because there's a lot of strange stuff out there, not just ghosts or not just UFOs.

Ryan Stacey
Yeah, no, that's a good question. Paranormal to me. Heh. Like anything that's just, again, not normal. Something, like, that doesn't make- make sense to the known world, or for what I'm told, or what I've learned. But, things that are not normal to me now could be normal later, if I research it and learn. So like, subjectively, to me, there's a lot of things that can go under that. But you're right, in terms of variants, like a lot of people may not perceive "paranormal," the same as I do. And- and that's the other part where this repackaging thing with the Ultraspectrum Classification System. It allows people to just report as they were raised, if you will, and what they believe it to be through mainstream media, and all these other things that they're showcasing, for whatever reasons those are, and be able to re- rewire the thought process to bring it all to a more balanced thought, and a more inclusive thought. So I mean, I include psychogenic activity, psychic abilities. I mean, recently, I've introduced the possibility like the flat earth conspiracy theorists. Like I mean, I've been talking to a lot of those people. I mean, there's a lot of things in there, that makes sense. But there's a lot of things that don't, and there's a lot of anger in there. But the thing that has them, that I can't ignore, with that paranormal part is that they have a lot of supporting evidence to suggest that the government is lying. And if the government's lying, about one thing then they might as well lie about everything. So there's- there's- there's these parallels. So for me, as a unbiased investigator, I gotta figure out what's true in everything, and what's false in everything, and what's fact. And when I do that, there is a lot of- a lot of information that's out there, that- that does not make sense. And that's what we're told to believe. They have a problem with that. So long story short, everything is not normal, especially in the world today. Even if you look at the- the- the world problem that we have right now that everyone's drowning in right now. That's- that's not normal. So that could be paranormal as well.

Jim Harold
Now, when it comes to UFOs,

Ryan Stacey
Mhm?

Jim Harold
A lot of people subscribe to ETH. You know, the idea that these are aliens visiting us. And that's it.

Ryan Stacey
Mhm.

Jim Harold
Now, what camp do you feel that you fall in? Are you an ETH person? Do you think that's part of it? Or do you think that's totally on the wrong track?

Ryan Stacey
Well, it could be "either or." Anything is possible. It is a theory, extraterrestrial. You know, extraterrestrial, so that means, "extra earth," "more Earth," you know, or "outside of the known world." So, I mean, it's perspective. I mean, extraterrestrial could mean outside of this planet, or outside of this plane. If you're a flat earth theorist, that extra- that extra land would be the possible continents that exist outside this alleged ice wall that they claim exists. So that's perspective to them, you know, so- so the- so- so- so- and but-- in the globe, you know, in the globe perspective, you know, it's outside into the known universe in which we all- we all look to. So all these- all these things have to exist at the same time, and the individual interpretation is skewed, because not everybody can go to space, not everybody can confirm it. And then not everybody trusts the government when they tell them this is what's happening, because they lie about a whole bunch of things. So can it be from another place in time? Yes, it would have to be. It would-- they have to be somewhere, and ITH, you know, it's so-- Interdimensional Terrestrials, it could be the same thing within the- within the earth, underground, in our minds. So I subscribe to all possibilities, because I'm trying to figure out which one of these theories is the most accurate, and right now, where I land currently with my research, is that we, as human beings, are more capable of being or connecting with each other. And then something outside influence. As an example I always use is when you meditate, and you ask for a thought from your guides, or a message from your guides: how do we know for sure that when you get a message received, or back to you, that you're not just picking up somebody else meditating somewhere else in the world asking the same question, or sending out positive vibes to those that need to hear it? So we don't spend a lot of time questioning ourselves, or putting faith in ourselves. That we are those beings we are those- these gods as it- as it- as it was written in the Bible, you know, made in God's image, and all those other things, if so, for those who believes the Bible to be fact: some people don't, some people do. But even if we accept that theory, you know, we- we're not spending a lot of time internally. So when we do that, all these things are possible. It is very, very-- and there's more evidence to suggest that we, as human beings, are connecting with other human beings, through psychic abilities, and we just don't know about it. And we think that it's paranormal or we think that as UFOs as a distraction. So that we were unable to develop these abilities that we have as human beings. And that's that's kind of where the evidence is leading to. But again. A hypothesis. And not- it's not- it's not- it's not confirmed.

Jim Harold
Now, something that's always interested me, whether we're talking about UFOs, ghosts, whatever it is in the the big tent of the paranormal, at least that I subscribe to: is a trickster element.

Ryan Stacey
Mhm.

Jim Harold
And that, to put it colloquially, something's messing with us. What are your thoughts about that?

Ryan Stacey
Well, that's got to be intent, you need to prove intent. So there is, perhaps, evidence that there is more happening in the world that one person could never understand entirely. And because there are so many people involved, that even those who know, do not have the ability to regulate and have everybody on the same page. You can just take any law that's passed, nobody agrees on anything. So in terms of messing with us, I think we're messing with ourselves, in terms of, you know, all these changes we had over the years is evolution, these thoughts, and things like that. But to have somebody in, like directly, purposely guiding us in a certain direction. The thing that I'm comfortable with is- is knowing that, well, A. We're needed. Otherwise, they- they'd just wipe us all out. And B. There- there must be a future goal in mind in order to directly trick us or-- into this- this direction. But there's also a group of people that cannot be tricked. And- and with that, um, (sighs and laughs). I blame people for that too, because the people trying to trick these people, you know, there's money involved. There's theft involved, there's fraud involved, there's a lot of human elements that get overlooked. People are capable of being tricksters- tricksters as well, you gotta establish the motive. What is the intent? You know, ufology and paranormal-- not so much paranormal, but ufology, I guess, for the main point is a- is a money making industry. There's a huge money, huge motive there. So how do you trust? You know, how do you trust the ufologist that they're not just telling you what they- they need to tell you so you click on their- on their articles?

Jim Harold
Now, um, a lot people these days talk about disclosure,

Ryan Stacey
Mhm.

Jim Harold
They say, "look what's happening with the government," the US government specifically. And I'm guilty of that sometimes. Because being American, I always think everything is American-centric. But it is a big deal that the US government has done the things it's done, regardless of what your belief is, if- if it's in good faith or not.

Ryan Stacey
Mhm.

Jim Harold
Do you think that, the US government, for example, is starting to leak things out and drip things out intentionally to prepare us for an eventual disclosure? Or, do you think that's just wishful thinking on the part of many UFO acolytes?

Ryan Stacey
That's a great question. So evidence-based-- the way I knew it, removing the emotion and removing the feelings and all that other stuff that- that's out there: the want, and the wish, and the hope. The way I view this- this thing here is a data breach, we essentially have someone who had access to some sort of technology and documented it and leaked information. Whether that's unidentified or not, it's still- it's still a data breach. It's still you know, a problem with the employees, a problem with the system. And it doesn't change the fact that information got out to the public, whether that was deliberate or not, it can't be proven at this time, and it hasn't been divulged. It's just simply, you know, just the way that it is. So all these things that are happening, as a result of that, haven't been viewed as, you know, a lead towards getting that disclosure. But being a businessman, and having my own employees, and understanding how business and changing things work, I really see acknowledgement that an error was made, and steps are being taken in order to prevent that from ever happening again. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that the information isn't authentic, and the subject isn't real. It's just that is a bigger problem, is we need to prevent that type of information from getting out to the public in the way that it did. So that we- we now have to do something about it. And now if the best thing to do about it is to cover it up or keep it a little bit contained-- And they learn that they can't be so loose with their experiments or whatever it is that they're doing, because we as humans are becoming smarter. So there's a bit of that, that I'm seeing. The- the- the- true, I guess, intent will be established once the- once the first report is done. And that information-- and depending on what that information reveals, will kind of give us a you know, baseline on whether or not a phenomenon exists or not. And there's a lot that will come with saying, "Yes, UFOs exist," because that would imply extraterrestrials exists, that would imply monsters exist, ghost exists, you have to say yes to everything. And- and strategically, if you can't definitively prove that any of those exist, or all of those exist. Strategically, it would be-- it would make the most sense for you to cover it up until you're able- able to express it in a known way. Unless they have the answers and they're prepared to do so. But then they'd have to do that. So looking at the human element, the business element, and understanding how- how it works, I see this as damage control. And it's- it's good that it got into the mainstream, it's good that we're talking about it, it's good that we're here. It's good. But I don't-- I wouldn't be very surprised if we didn't get any information once it's all locked up.

Jim Harold
That makes sense. I mean, it makes sense. And the thing that-- and I've said this numerous times on the show, so people might get upset with me, but I'm going to point it out again, and here is, as I see it, evidence that the government wasn't too happy about all of this, having to get to this point. When the-- that initial report came out in, wherever it was, May or June of last year. It came out at about 4:30PM ET on a Friday. And that's what you do, especially in the pre-internet days, that's what you do when you want to cover something up. When you don't want people talking about it much. You put it out late on a Friday, because it's too late. You know, and back in the day--

Ryan Stacey
Yeah, you take the weekend-

Jim Harold
Exactly. It's too late to-

Ryan Stacey
Yeah, forget it by the Monday-

Jim Harold
Yeah, exactly. What happens is: too late for evening newscast, which used to be huge here, particularly in the States, too late for them to do anything with it. Everybody's gone home. And then everybody's had gone to their ballgames and had their, you know, their cookouts and all that stuff. And then Monday morning, they come back and they say, "Yeah, they did really some about that UFO thing? Oh, well, interesting. Now onto work."

Ryan Stacey
Mhm.

Jim Harold
You know, you kind of, you release it, but you release it in such a way it has as little impact as possible.

Ryan Stacey
Mhm.

Jim Harold
If- if the government were really interested in saying, "This is really important, this groundbreaking, take a look at this!" they would have released it on a Monday, or a Tuesday, or something where it had the full news cycle to go through. So-

Yeah, that's a good point, because it's showing-

Yeah!

Ryan Stacey
-it shows their mind process before the release. And that's prime time. That's- that's- that is a strategy on its own, which, you know, marketing too. Four o' clock, five o' clock on a Friday, everbody's ready for the weekend.

Jim Harold
Yeah, so I mean, I don't see many. Yeah, nobody, nobody seemed to pick up on that. And it's like, there may be some people inside the government who want to disclose what is known. Maybe there are people like that. Any enterprise has people with varying agendas and- and thought- beliefs- different beliefs, and different motivations. But, there's somebody there who doesn't want it to get out, and that somebody had enough power to steer the time of that release. And I would think that would be a pretty powerful person. So that's- that's all I'm saying.

Ryan Stacey
Well, yeah, and then you got to look individually to all the players or the alleged players and their motives behind everything. I mean, Lue Elizondo, you can like him or hate him, but there's- there's- there's-- he's just a guy who did a thing. I mean, and he may you know, and same with Mellon, like I mean, these are all powerful people that did, you know, very important things. But it's also set the stage for books, and set the stage for presentations, and- and these other money making ventures. (Coughs). Excuse me. You know, and I guess, you know, credit where it's due, and entitlement, and things like that. But how long does that go on? You know, I mean, like- like everyone's still worshipping Lue Elizondo. To me, it was like- like a week of that, and I'm done with him. Like, that's it. You did a point. Good job. Carry on. And let's- let's look at the facts. I mean, for me, you know, let's, uh, I see a disgruntled employee who may have been let go, and decided to stick it to the man, and then- and then that's what happened. Or it was as part of the strategy. And then if it's part of the strategy, what is it that the government wants? And you got to look at everything else. So your- your Air Force turn into a space force. So everything is pointing to the space. Getting up- up into outer space where, you know, and- and what do we want to get up in space for, what we're studying, we're looking to see, and all of a sudden, we find a threat. And then guess what? There's justification to put to put weapons in there. And if we have weapons in there, if not already, what's to say, you know, we think they're pointing outwards. But if they can easily point out, it's just- it's just about- it's about getting, doing whatever they need to do to place them in that spot. And once they're there, we'll forget about it. And then all of a sudden, later on, something will happen from out there, and we'll forget about it. You know, so there's- there's- there's all those things.

Jim Harold
Yeah. I was just gonna say, on Elizondo, I want to be fair to him. So when-- I want to ask you this: your opinion on this?

Ryan Stacey
Sure.

Jim Harold
Is it possible that someone can benefit financially, for example, he did sign a big deal with HarperCollins, I obviously don't know the number, but I'm sure it was generous. So to do a book, could he, you know, like most people, if they have an opportunity, they're in a certain line of work, and somebody wants them to write a book and get a lucrative deal, most people will sign that. Does that make him any less dedicated to getting out what he thinks the truth is? I mean, can't you do both? Can't you-?

Ryan Stacey
-yeah, yeah, you can, like I write books, too. Everyone write books. I mean, it's just the way we get messages out. It's whether or not that book is factual and credible. The issue that I have with that is-- I mean-- and a lot of these things can't be solved until the book comes out. And- and you have to do a marketing campaign in order for people to buy the book. So you can- you can make a book and write it, put it on Amazon, and then unless you tell people it exists,

Jim Harold
Right.

Ryan Stacey
people will actually care about you, they're not going to buy it. So if the intent, is to make millions of dollars off of this book, with a marketing strategy, will be where you have to pay attention, and that- that is already existing by him doing all these things already. And- and also alludes to the fact that he has these secrets, that based on his credibility, that he will release in these books, and that becomes intriguing for the experiencers to purchase. And it's at that time, that I really hope that he gives something substantial to use. But every time I've seen that, I've been disappointed with what's been released. And- and in the problem-- and this ties in with the Experiencer Support Association, we also do crime reporting and fraud reporting, because all the investigations are done by my Bl- and my private investigating firm, Black Light Investigative and Surveillance Services. So we look into the source, we look into the- the methods, we look into all these elements, and try to balance everything. But the people are being manipulated into the sale. And that happens everywhere in ufology. Everywhere. Even selling courses-- like, that's why it's a money making industry. So- so- do we have a guy who- who's telling the truth, he's the real deal? Or do we have a guy who knows the system so well, and the people, that is playing a really good game of counterintelligence, which, you know, a lot of people forget that that's what he used to do, or may still do. And he's manipulating us. And the government either is allowing it, or the government can't stop it, because he's a civilian now, and they don't want to draw attention to it, because then it would emit other things, you know, discrediting him. And all these other things at the beginning was a good- good, you know, good attempt at saying that- that as well, but then... I don't know. In the UFO circles, he's a big deal, but outside, if you look at mainstream media, and what's actually been reported he's- he's nothing. You see, he's just a guy. And that's the thing: is even within our circles, these are circles that are so big, and so powerful, and so connected with all this information, yet outside of them, it doesn't- it doesn't reach mainstream.

Jim Harold
Right.

Ryan Stacey
And now is that mainstream the truth? And are we the crazy ones? Or, you know, or is this just not-- are they just waiting for something to come up to be scooped? Right? So what-- why can't I be on CNN? Why can't I, you know, like, with all the work that I've done and established for my country, you know, there's lots of opportunities that I could get that I've requested. But I've never gotten the opportunity to do that. Maybe I'm rude, maybe I'm off the, you know, rough on the edges, maybe I'm not, you know, I need some media training, whatever, you know, the language is. But why these people? Why specifically these people on CNN? You know, and- and- or CTV News and things like that? Like, I meet all the criteria, but yet the opportunities are never there. You know, so- so I ask questions like that: why them? And when you look at all of them, what they have in common, especially when you talk to the people that used to work with them, that no longer work with them, because they trust other people for a while. And then they learn secrets. Some people go to their houses, and actually can confirm and deny some facts, but then they need that to get on mainstream, and no one's gonna touch it, because then that discredits the news reporting system that- that- that- that is reporting it. And that's not good for anyone. So it's like, it's a convoluted game. And so, it has to be controlled. And I think- I think what has happened, in a nutshell, is that is that Lue created-- he rang a bell. And he got very far with it, and recognition within the community as- as it's- it's deserved. And there's still that possibility that he's telling the truth. The government, now, is aware that their process, and they're at-- on the lower end, needs to be looked at, and reviewed, and things need to be changed, because what else could be leaked in the same manner? Because they have a million and one different secret projects that they need to keep secret from the other countries so that we don't go to-- we have the upper hand for war. So- so there, there's- there's a lot of- there's a lot of reasons to cover this up that- that- that- that don't imply-- that have nothing to do with aliens, or UFOs. So now, what I'm seeing is Lue is taking advantage of his credibility, as he should, if he's telling the truth, and he's optimizing on it. And there's nothing wrong with that, if he's telling the truth. But you can't verify what he says. We will never be able to verify what he says. Unless the government confirms. That's the problem. And with the experiencer element, when they need to figure out what has happened to them. Who do they trust? That's the difficult part for them. I feel bad for the people. I don't care about these people that are in- in mainstream media, I'm only trying to get there so that way, I can understand what steps are needed to get there. And so that way, I can get the proper message conveyed to the people. And that's challenging on its own. But the people, the experiencers, this is not good for them, not good for them at all.

Jim Harold
One last question on the experiencers, and then I know you've got other commitments, so we want to let you go so you can take care of that. Um, in terms of-- I've heard the phrase before, and it seems like-- we do a show called Campfire where people call in with their supernatural experiences,

Ryan Stacey
Cool.

Jim Harold
-and to that spirit, of what we talked about before, Jim Harold's Campfire, I've been doing it since 2009. And people call them with UFO stories, ghost stories, the whole litany.

Ryan Stacey
Yeah.

Jim Harold
And I don't-- you know, I'm just like, "tell your story."

Mhm.

Ryan Stacey
Don't make it scarier. Don't make it spookier. Just tell your story.

Jim Harold
Just tell it. Yeah.

Ryan Stacey
So- so anyway, it seems like some, you know, I've heard the expression, "places sometimes aren't necessarily haunted, people are."

Mhm.

Jim Harold
Do you find the same thing with UFOs? Like, are there people that just seem to attract or interface with this kind of activity more than others, that some people seem to be a magnet for it?

Ryan Stacey
Yeah, no, I am seeing seeing that trend. And it's, and you gotta understand, you got to look at several possibilities of where these crafts, or machines, or lights exist. So in the real world, where we're able to take photographs and videotapes of it, you know, then- then, you know, others can see it. But then there's also that Ultraspectrum, that ether, that- that other space, that- that these experiencers may be seeing it in their mind. And because they're seeing it in their mind, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. It just means it's a little harder to document, a little harder to make credit, or become credible. And what I find with working with those experiences, is there's also existence of paranormal activity in their life, as well as psychogenic or psychic abilities. And when you time-- when I work with an experiencer, and I measure all the events separately, but then I timeline them with their experiencer ID number. So I actually, you know, built a timeline, "Okay, at an early age, you started with contact. And then all of a sudden you had- you saw the shadow figure. And then all of a sudden, you had poltergeist activity, you know, later on 30 years later." So, what that shows me is that something at that contact may have allowed the experiencer to see these paranormal things. And then later on, this polter- poltergeist activity, which they think through programming is paranormal, was actually themselves. So there's-- so- so we go back to the source, perhaps something was altered, then to allow the mind to see this other space, or this other time, or this other place. When you study consciousness, you know, we don't even know where we go when we dream. We don't even know if- if right now, in this moment that this is the real world. It could be-- we could-- the real world could exist when we sleep. We don't know that for a fact yet. All these things are possible. So the- the magnets, in my opinion, are those that have psychic ability, some sort of mental enhancements. And there's a lot of that in the paranormal community. And- and- and it's so open, and so transparent, that's right. It's not- it's sorry- sorry, it's so open. And in the UFO community, it's considered taboo. But yet, if you accept it, that it's possible, that all these experiencers in the UFO community are seeing it in their mind, and you understand consciousness and paranormal activity, you have more data; which is why we measure everything, and investigate everything for the Experiencer Support Association, because we understand how to connect it together. And I-- my- my goal has always been to explain to the UFO academics who are so smart, that they're dumb. How to actually comprehend paranormal and parapsychology. Because when you break it down to the source, and to the evidence, and to the people, we're no different. And if we work together, everyone talks about unity, and what unity in the UFO circuit is, is just simply friends of friends who want to make money on a shared podcast. But unity, in terms of experiencers, is the people. That guarantee, you know, to identify which ones have the best probability of making contact, and bringing them together, then we'll get contact.

Jim Harold
Ryan, thank you for joining us today, please tell people where they can connect with you. And also, if you can tell them a little bit about that report that- that you've done and the one that you're working on, so they can be aware of that as well.

Ryan Stacey
Yeah, so if you go to tesacan.org, T-E-S-A-C-A-N dot O-R-G, you can pretty well find everything there if you browse. Currently, the website is being rebuilt, so it'll be a little better. One coming that's more user friendly for the reporting system. So, the reporting system is on there as well. Just click, "submit a report." If you'd like to follow me on an individual basis, I'm on Facebook, facebook.com/heedtheworld. That's where I do most of my work. I am also on Twitter, but I will warn you, I use that strategically to- to investigate and to trap some people that are committing frauds. So that's- that's a tool, but I am on Twitter. And yeah, I do a podcast every Thursday 8PM Eastern time called "Beyond the Tinfoil Hat," where I interview people kind of like an interrogation style, but try to get a feel of what- what drives them, and why they're doing this. And I also do a lunchtime special, so 12pm Eastern time called, "Uncharted Case Files," where I'm actually going through my Canadian current events survey, which is for the reporting year 2020, where I'm actually breaking down secret declassified documents I was able to retrieve by the Canadian government through a Freedom of Information request that nobody seems to talk about. But I'm doing a podcast showing my work, and my evidence, my research and trying to justify that we do have UFOs too. And our Canadian government is more open about it. And I think they've-- they're just waiting for somebody to pick up the ball and actually solve it. And yeah, so you can find that on YouTube.

Jim Harold
Ryan Stacey, thank you for joining us today. I appreciate it.

Ryan Stacey
You're welcome. Thank you.

Jim Harold
And thank you for tuning in to UFO Encounters. Thank you very much. We hope you have a nice week, and keep your eye to the sky. Bye, bye, everybody.