Jan 19, 2022
Ufologist Ryan Stacey talks to us about his efforts to catalog the experiences of those who have seen UFOs and who've had other paranormal encounters.
TRANSCRIPT
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Jim Harold
UFOs. Are they aliens? Government secret projects? The imaginings
of disturbed individuals, or just outright hoaxes? We're here to
find out. Welcome to Jim Harold's UFO Encounters.
Welcome to UFO Encounters. I am Jim Harold, and so glad to be with you once again. And we have a great guest to talk about UFOs, and we're talking about Ryan Stacey. He is a private investigator, citizen journalist, and an active Canadian disclosure ufologist. He is also a private paranormal / psychogenic investigator. And he is the creator of the Ultraspectrum Classification System, and founder of The Experiencer Support Association. And we are so glad to have him with us today. And Ryan, thank you for joining us on UFO Encounters.
Ryan Stacey
Thank you for having me.
Jim Harold
So how did you get started in all of this? You know, it's not the
typical- I guess being a paranormal podcaster is not the- and
you're also a podcaster by the way, but I'm a full time paranormal
podcaster which is a, you know, a unique job description. How did
you get into this? Because it is kind of a unique field to be
in.
Ryan Stacey
Yeah, well to- to make it simple. The word, "paranormal," it just
means anything not normal. So like, u- ufology or UFOs is just kind
of like a line drawn in the sand to separate, you know, certain
people in this, what we call the "Ultraspectrum." So, I started off
as paranormal. I'm still paranormal by definition. And that has
always been inclusive of ufology. But in order to establish
credibility, I suppose in- in mainstream media, it needs to be
defined as separate currently, until we're able to bridge that gap
and bring ufolo- bring paranormal into mainstream, as well. So I've
told this many, many times in many, many podcasts. And my origin
story, I always try to summarize it the best I can each time. But
essentially, I started off as an owned and operated private,
investigating firm. So, someone had hired me to locate their son
that went missing, and they believed him to be abducted by aliens.
And through that investigation, I end up learning that they joined
Scientology, so there was something in that- in that circle, but
not necessarily the truth as the- as the family had believed. Then
through that, I was in those circles, in those channels, looking
for this person. And then it's, you know, long story short, I got
eventually involved with MUFON because somebody had-- was upset
about not getting the- the manual in time. So there was like a
potential fraud claim. So, I investigated that to assist, and then
that got cleared up, and then I got dragged into investigations
with the MUFON Canada. So then, I would fast track all the way
through that, I guess. I mean, so many things happened: field
investigator, Assistant Director of, sorry, Director of Ontario. I
am Canadian, by the way, there is so much drama that- that I've
spent with MUFON. But the whole point of it is; I was at the top. I
was the National Director, I'm sorry, the National Chief
Investigator for investigations in Canada. I was also the
International Field Investigator Trainer. So, I was responsible for
teaching everyone how to investigate UFOs. And then along my
career, being a private investigator, holding a private company, as
well, and investigations, information was divulged to me about the-
the-- what was alleged at the time, sexual activity with Jan
Harzan. So, I had reported that to the police, and later on, that
was proven to be true. So then, that made it a little bit hard and
difficult for me to remain in MUFON, but yet, it didn't come to
surface. So, eventually, it was forced out. And then- and then the
police made their arrests, and all that other fun stuff. And so
that has nothing to do... That's kind of how I got into the "now,"
because, along the whole way, and of course I'm paraphrasing and
summarizing this... Is I-- There was little and minimal help for
anyone who was an experiencer, so for the witnesses. And there was
absolutely zero assistance for anyone that had an encounter of
anything that did not involve a picture or a video involving a
machine in the sky. So there is- there is this void of- of lack of
assistance that needed to be filled. And- and I couldn't turn away
from that. And then as a result, that's what The Experiencer
Support Association turned into. And here I am now, talking about
all all those things.
Jim Harold
Now, take me through the process. If somebody goes to the
Experiencer Support Association website, and I'm looking at
T-E-S-A-C-A-N dot org (tesacan.org) right now, is that available
both in the US and Canada? Or just in-- There's also T-E-S-A C-A-N
dot org (tesacan.org)? It's available to US and Canada. Is that
correct?
Ryan Stacey
Yeah, it's available to anyone. And TESACAN essentially, which is
TESA Canada, because originally I wanted to just establish the
Canadian element which is- which has been lacking in, especially
in, American ufology. And, but now recently, TESA is now
international. So the actual-- "TESA International Media
Incorporated," is the- is the full name of that. But, we help
everyone from UK, New Zealand, Australia.
Jim Harold
Now, if somebody goes to your website, and they report. How-- Take
us through that process. And then what is the interaction with
them? How does that work?
Ryan Stacey
Perfect. I like this question. So if you go to tesacan.org, forward
slash reporting system (tesacan.org/reportingsystem), it'll bring
you to- to the- to that as well. So it will ask you what's called,
"conditional logic." Logical questions. So, it will ask you
specific things about the event. And depending on your answers, you
only be asked what's relevant. So, you're not going to answer a
whole bunch of- millions of questions that aren't relevant, like
MUFON had. So, and with that, it'll splinter it based on your
archetypical belief of what the event may be. And what I mean by
that: if you think it's a ghost, then you're going to be asked
specific questions around that. And that stigma, or that- that
archetype, so that we to help repackage it, by the end, in our new
classification system. So, you have the ability to report any
experience. That could be UFOs, Paranormal, it could be- it could
be crop circles, it could be cryptid, pair cryptids and Bigfoot or,
you know, Dogman, or any anything like that. Anything you see, that
is unusual, that can't be explained. Residual evidence, such as
crop circles, or implants, or markings. So, anything you can think
of that's considered paranormal can be investigated through--
reported through this report. Once that's done, and through that
whole process, you will be asked specific questions that, you know,
that kind of indicators. Like, what do you want to do with it? Us
to do with it? What- what kind of help are you seeking? So, you
kind of really explain to us in great detail what it is that you're
in need of, and what you're hoping to achieve by making a report.
And then, that allows us to- to assist that experiencer in a
customized way. As soon as it's processed, you get a copy of it. So
it's- it's-- you automatic-- without us doing anything, it's been
written, it's been documented, there's proof, and you also have a
contract between the two of us, that clearly outlines what you
would like us to do. And as long as we do those things, the goal
is-- the expectation is, that you're going to be satisfied. And so,
when we get into the investigative process, you're assigned a
number for your case. So that remains anonymous. And you can- you
can choose to be anonymous or not, it's up to you. And even if you
choose to not be anonymous, you're still anonymous, we protect that
always. Anyways, the investigative process is unique, because I use
you, through the process. I don't need to go to your place, and put
boots on the ground, and do a whole bunch of things. I, you know,
you took a photo at nighttime, and I need to see your place at
daytime, I'm going to ask you-- I'm going to give you very specific
directions on how to get me daytime photos. So that way, I can
review and analyze from here. So when I walk you through that
process, and bring you through all these other things, and we break
it all down, there's a little bit of a trauma assessment. And you
kind of-- you do that yourself. And if there's any indicators or
markers that some sort of, I guess, referral, for any anxiety or-
or PTSD or stress-removing pseudo-sciences that we could recommend,
such as Reiki or yoga or anything; anything that helps heal the
mind, we might, we would, introduce you to some programs. We have
one that's called, "Experiencers Anonymous." That happens every
Saturday, either on the Observation Deck or via Zoom. And you can
sign up for that: tesacan.org/EA. So then you can kind of just deal
and talk about your experiences amongst your peers in a private
setting. And just- just get comfortable with talking about it while
the investigation is happening. Or vice versa. You start there, and
then eventually, you're like, "You know what? This is something
substantial, and I want to make a report," So, it's a bit of that.
So, as soon as that's done, and I repackage it, and I present you
with my report, which is also prepped to be used for the
"Ultraspectrum Paranormal Report," which is my annual report on on
that. You kind of review it, you'll see that things are redacted,
you'll see that information is only relevant to the case, there's
no personal stuff or identifiers: so just facts. And then we come
to a conclusion together. So if- if- if I-- if it's labeled as
"identified," it could still be unidentified. But the whole point
is that me and the experiencer, agree that it's high probability
that it's likely something known, and then we can close it. We
don't need to look at it any further, because some experiencers
have multiple experiences. So-- and that also allows... it makes it
easier for the experiencer to accept the possibility, that it's a
known thing, or something else entirely, when you involve them in
the process. MUFON protocol has always been just tell them what you
think, and if they don't like it: too bad. And there's a lot of
social issues with that. And there's a lot of anger that- that is
directly caused, because of actions like that. So this process
takes a little bit more time. I don't need to have a million cases,
I just need to have you know, like, you know, a few, and really
work with- really work with them to get good data. Then I compile
it into all these measurements, in this report. And then I
establish trends and statistics, and- and then I make predictions
on what the ideal candidate or experiencer or may be, that is able
to exhibit these specific types of phenomenons. And by which means
and by which methods. So, the only way I can connect-- and that
allows me, and that's why we use the Ultraspectrum Classification
System to repackage what you think it is, and break it down into
categories that make sense for all parties. So as an example, for
UFO orbs and- and paranormal orbs, essentially, they're the same
thing, lights in the sky, we would call that category a "sensory
display." And we would group that as aerial activity, which brings
both parties to the table, that we can agree that this is activity
that's in the sky. And then we can kind of splinter that into UFO
or paranormal activity, depending on the archetype in which we're
looking at. And then, define whether or not that's machine or
light. And if it's a machine, then perhaps the archetype, "UFO," is
properly used. If it's light, then perhaps, "UAP," needs to be
used. But that's up to you to decide. We can agree that this is a
machine, this- this may be a machine or high probability. And we
can agree that on a high probability, that this is light. And
therefore, when we do a further study on all that sample in those
categories, we'll be able to do better research in those
streamlines- streamlining it. So-- and also with that as the
experiencer, if you are one of the cases that are unknown, you will
be assigned an experiencer ID number. And with that, that becomes
your number. You get a card, all these other things, it's
completely private. If you ever come to any of our events, you show
that card, you'll get something for free, or you get-- you'll get
special access, because you participated in this. And we've been
able to identify-- have not been able to identify what it is that-
that you've reported. And then with that, it allows us to tes-- do
further tests and further studies within these groups of
individuals to try to find out what they have in common. And so
far, what I'm learning that they have on common- in common is that
there may be another place, you know, either like, what we call the
Ultraspectrum which is the ether, or- or the Interdimension, if you
will. And what we have, is a variant of people that use a various--
that have a variety of methods that they use, in order to get to
this place. And that's what I'm trying to- to establish is that
there's- there's evidence that supports that there-- this place
exists. But, I'm learning more about who is able to get there. And
once I'm able to learn who can get there, then we'll be able to
actually make contact with a- with a more controlled sample.
That's- that's- that's it in a nutshell.
Jim Harold
Now, here's a question, because I sense a similar thought here
between us. When I started the Paranormal Podcast in 2005, I called
it "paranormal." And to my mind "paranormal" included UFOs,
cryptids, ghosts, all of it.
Ryan Stacey
Mhm.
Jim Harold
And as time went on, you know, people said, "Oh, you do a ghost
show." And it's like, "Yeah, that's part of it. And that's not the
whole part of it." So it's a frustration to me when people say
quote, "paranormal," that they just mean guys running around
investigating ghosts in black T-shirts.
Ryan Stacey
Mmm
Jim Harold
That's- that's what people think, and they-- that's all they think
it is. And it's really annoying to me, to be honest. Not that
there's anything wrong with paranormal investigation and all of
those things, that's fine. But it's not the whole ball of wax. It's
one very kind of small part of it, in my mind at least. And it's-
it's become kind of this buzzword for ghost shows and that kind of
thing. So-
Ryan Stacey
I agree with you.
Jim Harold
So let me- let me ask you this. What is your definition of
"paranormal?" How, wide do you cast your net? Because there's a lot
of strange stuff out there, not just ghosts or not just UFOs.
Ryan Stacey
Yeah, no, that's a good question. Paranormal to me. Heh. Like
anything that's just, again, not normal. Something, like, that
doesn't make- make sense to the known world, or for what I'm told,
or what I've learned. But, things that are not normal to me now
could be normal later, if I research it and learn. So like,
subjectively, to me, there's a lot of things that can go under
that. But you're right, in terms of variants, like a lot of people
may not perceive "paranormal," the same as I do. And- and that's
the other part where this repackaging thing with the Ultraspectrum
Classification System. It allows people to just report as they were
raised, if you will, and what they believe it to be through
mainstream media, and all these other things that they're
showcasing, for whatever reasons those are, and be able to re-
rewire the thought process to bring it all to a more balanced
thought, and a more inclusive thought. So I mean, I include
psychogenic activity, psychic abilities. I mean, recently, I've
introduced the possibility like the flat earth conspiracy
theorists. Like I mean, I've been talking to a lot of those people.
I mean, there's a lot of things in there, that makes sense. But
there's a lot of things that don't, and there's a lot of anger in
there. But the thing that has them, that I can't ignore, with that
paranormal part is that they have a lot of supporting evidence to
suggest that the government is lying. And if the government's
lying, about one thing then they might as well lie about
everything. So there's- there's- there's these parallels. So for
me, as a unbiased investigator, I gotta figure out what's true in
everything, and what's false in everything, and what's fact. And
when I do that, there is a lot of- a lot of information that's out
there, that- that does not make sense. And that's what we're told
to believe. They have a problem with that. So long story short,
everything is not normal, especially in the world today. Even if
you look at the- the- the world problem that we have right now that
everyone's drowning in right now. That's- that's not normal. So
that could be paranormal as well.
Jim Harold
Now, when it comes to UFOs,
Ryan Stacey
Mhm?
Jim Harold
A lot of people subscribe to ETH. You know, the idea that these are
aliens visiting us. And that's it.
Ryan Stacey
Mhm.
Jim Harold
Now, what camp do you feel that you fall in? Are you an ETH person?
Do you think that's part of it? Or do you think that's totally on
the wrong track?
Ryan Stacey
Well, it could be "either or." Anything is possible. It is a
theory, extraterrestrial. You know, extraterrestrial, so that
means, "extra earth," "more Earth," you know, or "outside of the
known world." So, I mean, it's perspective. I mean,
extraterrestrial could mean outside of this planet, or outside of
this plane. If you're a flat earth theorist, that extra- that extra
land would be the possible continents that exist outside this
alleged ice wall that they claim exists. So that's perspective to
them, you know, so- so the- so- so- so- and but-- in the globe, you
know, in the globe perspective, you know, it's outside into the
known universe in which we all- we all look to. So all these- all
these things have to exist at the same time, and the individual
interpretation is skewed, because not everybody can go to space,
not everybody can confirm it. And then not everybody trusts the
government when they tell them this is what's happening, because
they lie about a whole bunch of things. So can it be from another
place in time? Yes, it would have to be. It would-- they have to be
somewhere, and ITH, you know, it's so-- Interdimensional
Terrestrials, it could be the same thing within the- within the
earth, underground, in our minds. So I subscribe to all
possibilities, because I'm trying to figure out which one of these
theories is the most accurate, and right now, where I land
currently with my research, is that we, as human beings, are more
capable of being or connecting with each other. And then something
outside influence. As an example I always use is when you meditate,
and you ask for a thought from your guides, or a message from your
guides: how do we know for sure that when you get a message
received, or back to you, that you're not just picking up somebody
else meditating somewhere else in the world asking the same
question, or sending out positive vibes to those that need to hear
it? So we don't spend a lot of time questioning ourselves, or
putting faith in ourselves. That we are those beings we are those-
these gods as it- as it- as it was written in the Bible, you know,
made in God's image, and all those other things, if so, for those
who believes the Bible to be fact: some people don't, some people
do. But even if we accept that theory, you know, we- we're not
spending a lot of time internally. So when we do that, all these
things are possible. It is very, very-- and there's more evidence
to suggest that we, as human beings, are connecting with other
human beings, through psychic abilities, and we just don't know
about it. And we think that it's paranormal or we think that as
UFOs as a distraction. So that we were unable to develop these
abilities that we have as human beings. And that's that's kind of
where the evidence is leading to. But again. A hypothesis. And not-
it's not- it's not- it's not confirmed.
Jim Harold
Now, something that's always interested me, whether we're talking
about UFOs, ghosts, whatever it is in the the big tent of the
paranormal, at least that I subscribe to: is a trickster
element.
Ryan Stacey
Mhm.
Jim Harold
And that, to put it colloquially, something's messing with us. What
are your thoughts about that?
Ryan Stacey
Well, that's got to be intent, you need to prove intent. So there
is, perhaps, evidence that there is more happening in the world
that one person could never understand entirely. And because there
are so many people involved, that even those who know, do not have
the ability to regulate and have everybody on the same page. You
can just take any law that's passed, nobody agrees on anything. So
in terms of messing with us, I think we're messing with ourselves,
in terms of, you know, all these changes we had over the years is
evolution, these thoughts, and things like that. But to have
somebody in, like directly, purposely guiding us in a certain
direction. The thing that I'm comfortable with is- is knowing that,
well, A. We're needed. Otherwise, they- they'd just wipe us all
out. And B. There- there must be a future goal in mind in order to
directly trick us or-- into this- this direction. But there's also
a group of people that cannot be tricked. And- and with that, um,
(sighs and laughs). I blame people for that too, because the people
trying to trick these people, you know, there's money involved.
There's theft involved, there's fraud involved, there's a lot of
human elements that get overlooked. People are capable of being
tricksters- tricksters as well, you gotta establish the motive.
What is the intent? You know, ufology and paranormal-- not so much
paranormal, but ufology, I guess, for the main point is a- is a
money making industry. There's a huge money, huge motive there. So
how do you trust? You know, how do you trust the ufologist that
they're not just telling you what they- they need to tell you so
you click on their- on their articles?
Jim Harold
Now, um, a lot people these days talk about disclosure,
Ryan Stacey
Mhm.
Jim Harold
They say, "look what's happening with the government," the US
government specifically. And I'm guilty of that sometimes. Because
being American, I always think everything is American-centric. But
it is a big deal that the US government has done the things it's
done, regardless of what your belief is, if- if it's in good faith
or not.
Ryan Stacey
Mhm.
Jim Harold
Do you think that, the US government, for example, is starting to
leak things out and drip things out intentionally to prepare us for
an eventual disclosure? Or, do you think that's just wishful
thinking on the part of many UFO acolytes?
Ryan Stacey
That's a great question. So evidence-based-- the way I knew it,
removing the emotion and removing the feelings and all that other
stuff that- that's out there: the want, and the wish, and the hope.
The way I view this- this thing here is a data breach, we
essentially have someone who had access to some sort of technology
and documented it and leaked information. Whether that's
unidentified or not, it's still- it's still a data breach. It's
still you know, a problem with the employees, a problem with the
system. And it doesn't change the fact that information got out to
the public, whether that was deliberate or not, it can't be proven
at this time, and it hasn't been divulged. It's just simply, you
know, just the way that it is. So all these things that are
happening, as a result of that, haven't been viewed as, you know, a
lead towards getting that disclosure. But being a businessman, and
having my own employees, and understanding how business and
changing things work, I really see acknowledgement that an error
was made, and steps are being taken in order to prevent that from
ever happening again. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that the
information isn't authentic, and the subject isn't real. It's just
that is a bigger problem, is we need to prevent that type of
information from getting out to the public in the way that it did.
So that we- we now have to do something about it. And now if the
best thing to do about it is to cover it up or keep it a little bit
contained-- And they learn that they can't be so loose with their
experiments or whatever it is that they're doing, because we as
humans are becoming smarter. So there's a bit of that, that I'm
seeing. The- the- the- true, I guess, intent will be established
once the- once the first report is done. And that information-- and
depending on what that information reveals, will kind of give us a
you know, baseline on whether or not a phenomenon exists or not.
And there's a lot that will come with saying, "Yes, UFOs exist,"
because that would imply extraterrestrials exists, that would imply
monsters exist, ghost exists, you have to say yes to everything.
And- and strategically, if you can't definitively prove that any of
those exist, or all of those exist. Strategically, it would be-- it
would make the most sense for you to cover it up until you're able-
able to express it in a known way. Unless they have the answers and
they're prepared to do so. But then they'd have to do that. So
looking at the human element, the business element, and
understanding how- how it works, I see this as damage control. And
it's- it's good that it got into the mainstream, it's good that
we're talking about it, it's good that we're here. It's good. But I
don't-- I wouldn't be very surprised if we didn't get any
information once it's all locked up.
Jim Harold
That makes sense. I mean, it makes sense. And the thing that-- and
I've said this numerous times on the show, so people might get
upset with me, but I'm going to point it out again, and here is, as
I see it, evidence that the government wasn't too happy about all
of this, having to get to this point. When the-- that initial
report came out in, wherever it was, May or June of last year. It
came out at about 4:30PM ET on a Friday. And that's what you do,
especially in the pre-internet days, that's what you do when you
want to cover something up. When you don't want people talking
about it much. You put it out late on a Friday, because it's too
late. You know, and back in the day--
Ryan Stacey
Yeah, you take the weekend-
Jim Harold
Exactly. It's too late to-
Ryan Stacey
Yeah, forget it by the Monday-
Jim Harold
Yeah, exactly. What happens is: too late for evening newscast,
which used to be huge here, particularly in the States, too late
for them to do anything with it. Everybody's gone home. And then
everybody's had gone to their ballgames and had their, you know,
their cookouts and all that stuff. And then Monday morning, they
come back and they say, "Yeah, they did really some about that UFO
thing? Oh, well, interesting. Now onto work."
Ryan Stacey
Mhm.
Jim Harold
You know, you kind of, you release it, but you release it in such a
way it has as little impact as possible.
Ryan Stacey
Mhm.
Jim Harold
If- if the government were really interested in saying, "This is
really important, this groundbreaking, take a look at this!" they
would have released it on a Monday, or a Tuesday, or something
where it had the full news cycle to go through. So-
Yeah, that's a good point, because it's showing-
Yeah!
Ryan Stacey
-it shows their mind process before the release. And that's prime
time. That's- that's- that is a strategy on its own, which, you
know, marketing too. Four o' clock, five o' clock on a Friday,
everbody's ready for the weekend.
Jim Harold
Yeah, so I mean, I don't see many. Yeah, nobody, nobody seemed to
pick up on that. And it's like, there may be some people inside the
government who want to disclose what is known. Maybe there are
people like that. Any enterprise has people with varying agendas
and- and thought- beliefs- different beliefs, and different
motivations. But, there's somebody there who doesn't want it to get
out, and that somebody had enough power to steer the time of that
release. And I would think that would be a pretty powerful person.
So that's- that's all I'm saying.
Ryan Stacey
Well, yeah, and then you got to look individually to all the
players or the alleged players and their motives behind everything.
I mean, Lue Elizondo, you can like him or hate him, but there's-
there's- there's-- he's just a guy who did a thing. I mean, and he
may you know, and same with Mellon, like I mean, these are all
powerful people that did, you know, very important things. But it's
also set the stage for books, and set the stage for presentations,
and- and these other money making ventures. (Coughs). Excuse me.
You know, and I guess, you know, credit where it's due, and
entitlement, and things like that. But how long does that go on?
You know, I mean, like- like everyone's still worshipping Lue
Elizondo. To me, it was like- like a week of that, and I'm done
with him. Like, that's it. You did a point. Good job. Carry on. And
let's- let's look at the facts. I mean, for me, you know, let's,
uh, I see a disgruntled employee who may have been let go, and
decided to stick it to the man, and then- and then that's what
happened. Or it was as part of the strategy. And then if it's part
of the strategy, what is it that the government wants? And you got
to look at everything else. So your- your Air Force turn into a
space force. So everything is pointing to the space. Getting up- up
into outer space where, you know, and- and what do we want to get
up in space for, what we're studying, we're looking to see, and all
of a sudden, we find a threat. And then guess what? There's
justification to put to put weapons in there. And if we have
weapons in there, if not already, what's to say, you know, we think
they're pointing outwards. But if they can easily point out, it's
just- it's just about- it's about getting, doing whatever they need
to do to place them in that spot. And once they're there, we'll
forget about it. And then all of a sudden, later on, something will
happen from out there, and we'll forget about it. You know, so
there's- there's- there's all those things.
Jim Harold
Yeah. I was just gonna say, on Elizondo, I want to be fair to him.
So when-- I want to ask you this: your opinion on this?
Ryan Stacey
Sure.
Jim Harold
Is it possible that someone can benefit financially, for example,
he did sign a big deal with HarperCollins, I obviously don't know
the number, but I'm sure it was generous. So to do a book, could
he, you know, like most people, if they have an opportunity,
they're in a certain line of work, and somebody wants them to write
a book and get a lucrative deal, most people will sign that. Does
that make him any less dedicated to getting out what he thinks the
truth is? I mean, can't you do both? Can't you-?
Ryan Stacey
-yeah, yeah, you can, like I write books, too. Everyone write
books. I mean, it's just the way we get messages out. It's whether
or not that book is factual and credible. The issue that I have
with that is-- I mean-- and a lot of these things can't be solved
until the book comes out. And- and you have to do a marketing
campaign in order for people to buy the book. So you can- you can
make a book and write it, put it on Amazon, and then unless you
tell people it exists,
Jim Harold
Right.
Ryan Stacey
people will actually care about you, they're not going to buy it.
So if the intent, is to make millions of dollars off of this book,
with a marketing strategy, will be where you have to pay attention,
and that- that is already existing by him doing all these things
already. And- and also alludes to the fact that he has these
secrets, that based on his credibility, that he will release in
these books, and that becomes intriguing for the experiencers to
purchase. And it's at that time, that I really hope that he gives
something substantial to use. But every time I've seen that, I've
been disappointed with what's been released. And- and in the
problem-- and this ties in with the Experiencer Support
Association, we also do crime reporting and fraud reporting,
because all the investigations are done by my Bl- and my private
investigating firm, Black Light Investigative and Surveillance
Services. So we look into the source, we look into the- the
methods, we look into all these elements, and try to balance
everything. But the people are being manipulated into the sale. And
that happens everywhere in ufology. Everywhere. Even selling
courses-- like, that's why it's a money making industry. So- so- do
we have a guy who- who's telling the truth, he's the real deal? Or
do we have a guy who knows the system so well, and the people, that
is playing a really good game of counterintelligence, which, you
know, a lot of people forget that that's what he used to do, or may
still do. And he's manipulating us. And the government either is
allowing it, or the government can't stop it, because he's a
civilian now, and they don't want to draw attention to it, because
then it would emit other things, you know, discrediting him. And
all these other things at the beginning was a good- good, you know,
good attempt at saying that- that as well, but then... I don't
know. In the UFO circles, he's a big deal, but outside, if you look
at mainstream media, and what's actually been reported he's- he's
nothing. You see, he's just a guy. And that's the thing: is even
within our circles, these are circles that are so big, and so
powerful, and so connected with all this information, yet outside
of them, it doesn't- it doesn't reach mainstream.
Jim Harold
Right.
Ryan Stacey
And now is that mainstream the truth? And are we the crazy ones?
Or, you know, or is this just not-- are they just waiting for
something to come up to be scooped? Right? So what-- why can't I be
on CNN? Why can't I, you know, like, with all the work that I've
done and established for my country, you know, there's lots of
opportunities that I could get that I've requested. But I've never
gotten the opportunity to do that. Maybe I'm rude, maybe I'm off
the, you know, rough on the edges, maybe I'm not, you know, I need
some media training, whatever, you know, the language is. But why
these people? Why specifically these people on CNN? You know, and-
and- or CTV News and things like that? Like, I meet all the
criteria, but yet the opportunities are never there. You know, so-
so I ask questions like that: why them? And when you look at all of
them, what they have in common, especially when you talk to the
people that used to work with them, that no longer work with them,
because they trust other people for a while. And then they learn
secrets. Some people go to their houses, and actually can confirm
and deny some facts, but then they need that to get on mainstream,
and no one's gonna touch it, because then that discredits the news
reporting system that- that- that- that is reporting it. And that's
not good for anyone. So it's like, it's a convoluted game. And so,
it has to be controlled. And I think- I think what has happened, in
a nutshell, is that is that Lue created-- he rang a bell. And he
got very far with it, and recognition within the community as- as
it's- it's deserved. And there's still that possibility that he's
telling the truth. The government, now, is aware that their
process, and they're at-- on the lower end, needs to be looked at,
and reviewed, and things need to be changed, because what else
could be leaked in the same manner? Because they have a million and
one different secret projects that they need to keep secret from
the other countries so that we don't go to-- we have the upper hand
for war. So- so there, there's- there's a lot of- there's a lot of
reasons to cover this up that- that- that- that don't imply-- that
have nothing to do with aliens, or UFOs. So now, what I'm seeing is
Lue is taking advantage of his credibility, as he should, if he's
telling the truth, and he's optimizing on it. And there's nothing
wrong with that, if he's telling the truth. But you can't verify
what he says. We will never be able to verify what he says. Unless
the government confirms. That's the problem. And with the
experiencer element, when they need to figure out what has happened
to them. Who do they trust? That's the difficult part for them. I
feel bad for the people. I don't care about these people that are
in- in mainstream media, I'm only trying to get there so that way,
I can understand what steps are needed to get there. And so that
way, I can get the proper message conveyed to the people. And
that's challenging on its own. But the people, the experiencers,
this is not good for them, not good for them at all.
Jim Harold
One last question on the experiencers, and then I know you've got
other commitments, so we want to let you go so you can take care of
that. Um, in terms of-- I've heard the phrase before, and it seems
like-- we do a show called Campfire where people call in with their
supernatural experiences,
Ryan Stacey
Cool.
Jim Harold
-and to that spirit, of what we talked about before, Jim Harold's
Campfire, I've been doing it since 2009. And people call them with
UFO stories, ghost stories, the whole litany.
Ryan Stacey
Yeah.
Jim Harold
And I don't-- you know, I'm just like, "tell your story."
Mhm.
Ryan Stacey
Don't make it scarier. Don't make it spookier. Just tell your
story.
Jim Harold
Just tell it. Yeah.
Ryan Stacey
So- so anyway, it seems like some, you know, I've heard the
expression, "places sometimes aren't necessarily haunted, people
are."
Mhm.
Jim Harold
Do you find the same thing with UFOs? Like, are there people that
just seem to attract or interface with this kind of activity more
than others, that some people seem to be a magnet for it?
Ryan Stacey
Yeah, no, I am seeing seeing that trend. And it's, and you gotta
understand, you got to look at several possibilities of where these
crafts, or machines, or lights exist. So in the real world, where
we're able to take photographs and videotapes of it, you know,
then- then, you know, others can see it. But then there's also that
Ultraspectrum, that ether, that- that other space, that- that these
experiencers may be seeing it in their mind. And because they're
seeing it in their mind, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. It just
means it's a little harder to document, a little harder to make
credit, or become credible. And what I find with working with those
experiences, is there's also existence of paranormal activity in
their life, as well as psychogenic or psychic abilities. And when
you time-- when I work with an experiencer, and I measure all the
events separately, but then I timeline them with their experiencer
ID number. So I actually, you know, built a timeline, "Okay, at an
early age, you started with contact. And then all of a sudden you
had- you saw the shadow figure. And then all of a sudden, you had
poltergeist activity, you know, later on 30 years later." So, what
that shows me is that something at that contact may have allowed
the experiencer to see these paranormal things. And then later on,
this polter- poltergeist activity, which they think through
programming is paranormal, was actually themselves. So there's--
so- so we go back to the source, perhaps something was altered,
then to allow the mind to see this other space, or this other time,
or this other place. When you study consciousness, you know, we
don't even know where we go when we dream. We don't even know if-
if right now, in this moment that this is the real world. It could
be-- we could-- the real world could exist when we sleep. We don't
know that for a fact yet. All these things are possible. So the-
the magnets, in my opinion, are those that have psychic ability,
some sort of mental enhancements. And there's a lot of that in the
paranormal community. And- and- and it's so open, and so
transparent, that's right. It's not- it's sorry- sorry, it's so
open. And in the UFO community, it's considered taboo. But yet, if
you accept it, that it's possible, that all these experiencers in
the UFO community are seeing it in their mind, and you understand
consciousness and paranormal activity, you have more data; which is
why we measure everything, and investigate everything for the
Experiencer Support Association, because we understand how to
connect it together. And I-- my- my goal has always been to explain
to the UFO academics who are so smart, that they're dumb. How to
actually comprehend paranormal and parapsychology. Because when you
break it down to the source, and to the evidence, and to the
people, we're no different. And if we work together, everyone talks
about unity, and what unity in the UFO circuit is, is just simply
friends of friends who want to make money on a shared podcast. But
unity, in terms of experiencers, is the people. That guarantee, you
know, to identify which ones have the best probability of making
contact, and bringing them together, then we'll get contact.
Jim Harold
Ryan, thank you for joining us today, please tell people where they
can connect with you. And also, if you can tell them a little bit
about that report that- that you've done and the one that you're
working on, so they can be aware of that as well.
Ryan Stacey
Yeah, so if you go to tesacan.org, T-E-S-A-C-A-N dot O-R-G, you can
pretty well find everything there if you browse. Currently, the
website is being rebuilt, so it'll be a little better. One coming
that's more user friendly for the reporting system. So, the
reporting system is on there as well. Just click, "submit a
report." If you'd like to follow me on an individual basis, I'm on
Facebook, facebook.com/heedtheworld. That's where I do most of my
work. I am also on Twitter, but I will warn you, I use that
strategically to- to investigate and to trap some people that are
committing frauds. So that's- that's a tool, but I am on Twitter.
And yeah, I do a podcast every Thursday 8PM Eastern time called
"Beyond the Tinfoil Hat," where I interview people kind of like an
interrogation style, but try to get a feel of what- what drives
them, and why they're doing this. And I also do a lunchtime
special, so 12pm Eastern time called, "Uncharted Case Files," where
I'm actually going through my Canadian current events survey, which
is for the reporting year 2020, where I'm actually breaking down
secret declassified documents I was able to retrieve by the
Canadian government through a Freedom of Information request that
nobody seems to talk about. But I'm doing a podcast showing my
work, and my evidence, my research and trying to justify that we do
have UFOs too. And our Canadian government is more open about it.
And I think they've-- they're just waiting for somebody to pick up
the ball and actually solve it. And yeah, so you can find that on
YouTube.
Jim Harold
Ryan Stacey, thank you for joining us today. I appreciate it.
Ryan Stacey
You're welcome. Thank you.
Jim Harold
And thank you for tuning in to UFO Encounters. Thank you very much.
We hope you have a nice week, and keep your eye to the sky. Bye,
bye, everybody.