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Jim interviews author, experts and experiences about UFO phenomena in this PLUS ONLY podcast. For Jim's other PLUS shows, go to

Feb 28, 2022

Ken Goudsward joins us to talk about UFOs in the Bible.

You can find his book on the subject at Amazon: UFOs In The Bible

Thanks Ken!

Jim Harold 0:04
UFOs. Are they aliens? Government secret projects? The imaginings of disturbed individuals? Or just outright hoaxes? We're here to find out. Welcome to Jim Harold's UFO Encounters.

Welcome to UFO Encounters. I am Jim Harold, and so glad to be with you once again. And I think we're going to have a fascinating discussion today because this is something I have long, kind of wondered about. I, you know, in my teenage years, I learned quite a bit about the Bible. And although I've probably forgotten quite a bit of it, but you know, I was pretty deep into the Bible for a few years there. And I've always wondered about this question of UFOs in the Bible. And luckily for us, so has our author, but he did something about it. I'm talking about Ken Goudsward, and he is the author of the book UFOs in the Bible. And Ken is a best selling author and independent researcher whose interests include archaeology, autography, epistemology, thaumaturgy, and hermeneutics. He writes in a variety of genres, including nonfiction, science fiction, dark comedy, and poetry. And we are so glad to have him with us today. Ken, welcome to the program.

Ken Goudsward 1:22
Thank you, Jim. It's great to be here.

Jim Harold 1:25
So let me ask you, before you started this project, I guess I would ask a little bit, not to pry too much, but a little bit about your faith tradition, if you have one, or not, and, and also kind of your viewpoint on UFOs.

Ken Goudsward 1:41
For sure, so I was born in a Christian home, raised--went to church every Sunday. And I was also--my family was--is very big into volunteerism. So I was very involved in all kinds of aspects of church life for near--for about 50 years, and including two years of Bible College and Sunday school teaching. I was a deacon for three years and a worship pastor, not a worship pastor, but a worship leader for--for many years, with music and sound and all that kind of stuff. So I would say I was very much involved in the church. And basically, I guess, sort of, well, it's hard to give you an idea of the exact style of church it was because in Canada, where I am, our denominations are a little bit different from--from what you guys have down there.

Jim Harold 2:45

Ken Goudsward 2:47
But basically Evangelical, I wouldn't say fundamentalist, necessarily, but sort of leaning towards that, I guess,

Jim Harold 2:55
Right. Not--not totally dissimilar in the sense of same kind of denomination. Maybe a little more fundamentalist, but certainly a lot less years. So I know a lot less about the Bible than you do (laughs). Yeah, probably more than the average person, but a lot less than you do. So you kind of know where I'm coming from. Well, um, and--and UFOs, your thoughts on UFOs before you started this particular project?

Ken Goudsward 3:22
Yeah, so I'm a--I'm a science guy, I'm a--I have a computer science degree. I've done computer engineering and software engineering. And I'm currently employed in the technology industry. So to me, the science is always fascinating. And honestly, I can't live without it. So that's sort of the basis of my approach is that when--whenever--whatever I'm writing tends to be rather evidence based. And so with UFO--with the UFO phenomenon, it's tough because there's tons of evidence. But there's also a huge faith component to it. Because, first of all, do you trust the people who are talking? And you know, which side do you trust because there's always--there's almost just as much evidence that a thing happened or didn't happen. And it--I think it's very fascinating actually. It says a lot about the human condition or human nature or something that if somebody sees something, all of a sudden everybody else has an opinion on it, although they weren't there and they didn't see it. So--

Jim Harold 4:43

Ken Goudsward 4:43
--to me, that's a very--that really, really makes it difficult to get any kind of sense of what's really going on. But I've always found that UFOs are a fascinating topic. And now that we're really a lot more connected than--than we have been, certainly 30 years ago, I think it's--it's really changed the way that we can process information. And maybe we're not necessarily utilizing that to the best we can. But things like Facebook groups, where you can get involved, get into conversations with--I'm going to use air quotes here, like minded people. Because it's funny, even--even in these kind of niche groups, where you think, oh, everyone here is like, let's say there's like a UFOs in Canada group, you would assume that everyone there is is a believer of UFOs. But it's not the case. Because you--even there, you'll have--it's an open forum for people to tell about their experiences. And yet, the first thing you see after--after the post is always, "Oh, it's a weather balloon."

Jim Harold 6:07

Ken Goudsward 6:08
Come on, what--what is the point of this? Like why are you here? So it's, I guess, it's a--it's a problematic question. And how do you dig through the dust and the--the chaff in terms of getting to what's real, and you really can't, unless you've either seen it yourself or you absolutely 100% know you can believe this person who's talking. And so over the last five years, I guess, those--my position has changed a little bit due to both of those factors. Because a very good friend of mine, who--to whom I definitely trust with my life, saw a UFO and I have had the opportunity to talk to him about that, and--and what that experience was like, and I've met other people who I don't know as well, but who seem credible. And there's all these stories. So to me that--I'm starting to lean towards believing whatever anybody tells me what they saw, because, I mean, they're the expert, right? If I see something, I'm the expert on that. Of what I saw. Now, it doesn't necessarily mean that what I think I saw is what I saw--

Jim Harold 7:41

Ken Goudsward 7:41
--but I'm--right? So there's still all this unknowingness.

Jim Harold 7:45
More of a kind of a default towards belief rather than disbelief. And then the--

Ken Goudsward 7:49

Jim Harold 7:49
--the other thing for me is this. Is that just by sheer numbers? I mean, I think there are a lot of people who report in--and I cover the whole realm of what we would term the paranormal, like, kind of put the UFOs--put UFOs into that. I believe there are a lot of people who are good, well intentioned, good people, credible people who are mistaken. So I think some cases are mistaken. Of course, you've got, unfortunately, you've got the hoaxers and those kinds of people. But I think that there is kind of this Venn diagram of people who are good people, truthful people, credible people, smart people who have seen something that cannot be explained by logical--

Ken Goudsward 7:51

Jim Harold 7:54
--and that's where--so in other words, not necessarily everyone--every reported UFO are little green men, or whatever it is, because I don't even know if that's, you know, going back to the keel thing. I don't even know if that's the case. But the point being that there's a certain percentage, I believe, I think did see something and it's not a military aircraft. Sometimes it is. But--but--but a lot of times, it's not. So yeah, very interesting, more of a default towards at least listening to the person rather than just saying, "Oh, I can't be," and that's the thing that always--and no pun intended, we're speaking from the same hymnal, that is the thing that really has annoyed me about the hardcore debunkers. Not that--not that they object to a single case based on its merits or the information reported, but that immediately, they can hear two sentences about a case and immediately say it's a weather balloon, it's swamp gas, whatever it might be.

Ken Goudsward 9:29

Jim Harold 9:29
That is just--that's not even listening. That's just saying it's not true. It's not true. Now, let me ask you this before we get down to brass tacks with specific examples. Was this a tough thing for you to do? Because I know even in my, you know, I am of the Christian faith, but I'm probably not what a lot people would consider a quote, good Christian, but I'm still in the Christian faith. I still, you know, believe in Jesus Christ and the tenants that go along with that. I still believe despite all of the interviews I've done so forth over the years--but I also believe there's room for other things like possibly aliens or other dimensions or those kinds of things. So it's kind of an odd Christianity. But that's--that's kind of where I'm at. But sometimes I struggle with certain topics, covering certain topics, that they might be against the faith and things. Now, I typically push through that, because the shows are not about my beliefs. They're about this wide range of phenomena and people's beliefs about them. So I tend to, you know, put my personal thoughts aside and say, we're going to cover this topic and talk to somebody about it. Did you have that struggle going into this, that somehow this investigation would be harmful to the faith or your faith? Or whatever it might be?

Ken Goudsward 10:43
Well, absolutely. I mean, yes, and no. So I would say that, absolutely that would have been the case had it not been for some other similar instances that I--that already had taken me through that process.

Jim Harold 11:01

Ken Goudsward 11:03
So I mean, we only--we don't have a lot of time. So I'm--I could probably talk for two hours just about that question. So maybe what I'll say is--is, I guess, when--when you believe when you begin to read the Bible with what the Bible actually says, the--you start to come up against this cognitive dissonance between what the Bible literally says, and not even necessarily literally, but what the Bible says, when--even when it is using metaphors. There's this big gap between what the Bible says and what we've always been told that the Bible says, And they are not compatible. So absolutely, when you start looking into these types of things, and it's not just about UFOs, I'll just briefly say that you can get into the same problems, whether you're talking about hell, or angels, or Satan, or a lot of these things, and even salvation, and the concept of the Messiah. There's all this stuff that we are essentially taught, "this is from the Bible, and this is what God told us." And it's just not true. A lot of that stuff is not even in the Bible at all. And some of it is in there, but with a very different slant, or with a very different truth, I guess. If you're gonna call the Bible, the truth, the truth that we're presenting is very different from the truth that's there.

Jim Harold 12:51
Now, let's talk about examples. When you look at the Christian Bible, from the Old Testament to the New Testament, how early do the references to potential what we would call UFOs start?

Ken Goudsward 13:07
Yeah, so that's a--it depends. So again, we get into this sort of, because UFO sightings are sort of a gray area. And a lot of times you have very little data. But sometimes you have really great data. So I guess the answer to that question would be it's, it's very clear, in the book of Exodus, there's tons of data, there's like, this is obviously UFO experience. However, before--before Exodus, in the book of Genesis, there's five or six examples that are not super clear, but kind of obvious. Or on the scale to, well, actually, there's no data given here at all. And, in fact, in some of the cases, the story itself is skipped. And we're just told that, oh, yeah, something happened. And a good example for that is Abraham. So the Bible says that Abraham was called by God to leave his home and go to the land of Canaan, right? That's what we're told. No, the Bible doesn't say that. What the Bible says is, there's this one, just really brief reference to an event that already happened earlier that's not in the narrative. And what it says is, so, basically, I'll paraphrase slightly because I don't remember the exact quote, but it's something like this. Yahweh had called Abraham out from the lamp. Had called, already right? And so we don't know what that looked like. So there's--there's actually a lot of circumstantial evidence that that was probably also looked a lot like a UFO. But the story is not told in the Bible. So we don't know. Is that story written down somewhere? Maybe, like, you know, all these documents that were that we keep finding that are 1000s of years old, like in the Dead Sea Scrolls and--and several other cases like that, where we're finding these ancient stories that we've never seen before. And--and also copies of the stories that we do know. So to me, I think there's a very high likelihood that somewhere out there, there's a scroll with this story of Abraham's UFO encounter, but we don't have that. And it's not in the Bible. But if you look at all the circumstantial evidence, and then I kind of go through in the book, there's--I go through about 40 different examples. And then some of them in retrospect, after you've seen all that, you can kind of start to see patterns emerge. And maybe those also apply to other Bible characters, such as Enoch, and even all the way back to Adam. But it's not clear. So I would say that, most likely, the original--the entire Bible is a UFO story, starting from the very first verse, but it's not clear.

Jim Harold 16:37
Um, do you think that not only that some of the sightings in the sky, and visions, and so forth, but the supernatural things that--that happened in the Bible can be attributed to UFOs? For example, if I'm remembering correctly, and it's been a while, Saul's conversion, and to Paul in the light and so forth, on the road to Damascus, if I remember correctly,

Ken Goudsward 17:10
For sure. Yeah, that's absolutely correct. Yeah.

Jim Harold 17:12
Yeah. Tell us--tell us about that. Is that one of these cases? And what does that mean to the faith? Does that mean, in your view, what does that mean to the faith? Does that mean that there wasn't really a conversion? Was there just some--some light and possibly an alien or something? Or--or what was it?

Ken Goudsward 17:32
Well, Paul is a difficult case. Because even if--even if Paul didn't have a UFO experience, which he did, and I do talk about that in the book, it is pretty clear to me that Paul's conversion on Damascus was a UFO. And I do go into detail on that. But Paul is a strange case, because if you look at everything that Paul did, and then you look at everything that occurred before Paul, there's almost no--what's the word, like, it doesn't flow through. You have the Old Testament, you have this--all these traditions. So you have the patriarchs, you have the prophets. And then you have Jesus, who is remarkably different from the Old Testament, in terms of his, his message, and his actions, because Jesus was an itinerant healer. He was certainly not a preacher and not a prophet. Jesus never prophesied about anything that was going to happen, other than the fact that he said, I'm going to come back later, which isn't a prophecy. It's just a promise. I can also tell you that I'm going to come back later, doesn't mean I'm prophesying. But Jesus healed people. I've also healed people, and I've been healed myself. So there's something real about healing miracles. I don't necessarily know if those have anything to do with aliens. There's nothing that indicates that to me, but also, maybe it's possible. I mean, aliens are real and healing is real. So maybe they're connected. Maybe they're not. But Paul didn't give a s*** about healing. Now, that's not true. Paul healed people. But Paul wasn't really into healing. He did use it. He--there's a, there's an example where he healed an entire island. So everyone on the island was healed. But Paul's main interest was teaching people and indoctrinating them into a specific way of thinking and a specific belief system, which is almost diametrically opposed to what Jesus was doing. Jesus was interested in--in how people thought, and in--in kind of thinking in more healthy ways. But he never told people, "hey, this is the way it is." And so that's, that tends to be Paul's approach, is, "you guys got to believe this exact set of exact criteria and data." So, so Paul is problematic, regardless. But the problem is Christianity relies about 99% on Paul. And the concepts of salvation are built entirely on Paul. Not on Jesus. Jesus didn't talk about salvation. Jesus talked about the kingdom of heaven, and it's at hand. Not it's not some future thing that you need to get down on your knees and get into. No, it's a--it's a thing that's right here. He's talking about a sense of reality that we just need to grasp. And maybe that has something to do with aliens, because basically, Jesus was like, there's something going on guys, and you're not getting it.

Now, when you look at the Old Testament versus the New Testament, which one would you say is more rich in UFO references?

Definitely the old.

Jim Harold 21:23
And I guess, what do you think the implications of that are?

Ken Goudsward 21:28
Yeah, so I think that essentially, Judaism is built on UFO experiences. Whereas Christianity is built on the doctrines of Paul. So--but if you look at Moses, who is absolutely unquestionably the father of Judaism, even though Abraham is the--is the father, literally. So all Jews are descended from Abraham, but also, so are all Muslims. But all Jews adhere to the teachings of Moses. Now Moses got his teachings directly from an alien on Mount Sinai. And the book of Exodus is all about that. The entire Book of Exodus is all about that story, about what happened at Mount Sinai, and with the information that was given to Moses from Yahweh, on Mount Sinai. And that covers at least half of my book as well as--I go into a lot of detail. There's a lot of stuff in there about the--the experiences themselves, that--that Moses experienced, and that were experienced by Moses' friends and family. And not only that, but the entire nation of Israel. When they were standing, the first time, God began to speak--speak to them from Sinai, he spoke to the entire nation. And so the--there's--there's, I guess, some scholarly debate on how--how many people that was, it was a huge crowd. Estimates range between 10,000 and 5 million. So if there was 5 million people standing in a desert plane, how are 5 million people hearing the same thing? Or even if it's 10,000? I've--I don't know if you've been to a stadium where they had a like a rock concert or something.

Jim Harold 23:36

Ken Goudsward 23:38
The amount of sound equipment and amplifiers and speakers that you need to get 10,000 people to hear the same thing is a lot. There's a lot of technology involved.

Jim Harold 23:49

Ken Goudsward 23:51
So was Yahweh using technology? Or did he have some kind of sonic, you know, ESP type of thing where he was projecting words right into people's minds, telepathically? I don't know. But something was happening at Sinai. That was not a simple there's someone standing there talking and everyone can hear them. No, the--there's limits on on in terms of auditory--auditory propagation. So it's--it is also interesting how the--how the crowd responded. So after listening for a few minutes, or we don't really know how long, but for a little while, the people just started freaking out and they told Moses, "look, we can't do this. We can't take it. You go listen, and come tell--come tell us the message." So to me that's strange. And--and it's--I don't know if--I don't know what that was. But put that into context. So before that happens, these--the same crowd of up to 5 million people. They didn't just suddenly hear a voice out of nowhere, no. They--they saw a huge object descending from--through the atmosphere with tons of clouds and smoke, and fire, and lightning and flashing lights and thunderous sounds and like they say that the ground shook like, the thing was huge and loud. So, I mean, it's fine. You can say, Oh, well, that was God. Okay, sure. But there's also all these other parts of the description, where it's like, metallic, and like, gleaming bronze. And so when--God, last time I checked, God wasn't made out of bronze. And usually when, when the Bible talks about, you know, gods that are made out of bronze, they're talking about idols that were made from human hands. So something strange is happening here.

Jim Harold 26:20
Now, here's a question. And this one might upset some people, but I'll throw it out there. You know, when we look at different things, from a different level of sophistication, we might refer to it in some way, in a different way. So if somebody from the 30s saw a television, although I know there was work in development, but the average person, they would call it a radio with pictures, maybe, while we call it a television? Or maybe if you know, someone from the 1900s saw an iPhone, they would call it a magic communicator, you know, whatever, maybe.

Ken Goudsward 27:01
For sure. So I work in IT. That's my entire life (laughs).

Jim Harold 27:08
(Laughs) so--so--

Ken Goudsward 27:08
And it's even worse, because I do--I mostly manage printer support. So like, I'm doing a lot of troubleshooting.

Jim Harold 27:17
So people are not exactly explaining things in the most accurate, detailed level too. In my long way of saying, God, people would know the concept early on of God and Gods and understand the concept of a deity. They might not understand the concept of an alien. So do you think it's possible and again, this may offend some people, and I may burn in hell for asking the question, but I'll ask it anyway. Could God just simply be a very powerful alien?

Ken Goudsward 27:48
Absolutely. And in fact, I think even the way that you couched that question is telling, because I personally think that--and there's--this is based on evidence because I am a scientist, it seems to me that this--even the idea that the early people had a concept of God is actually--we're I think we're projecting our concept of God--

Jim Harold 28:14

Ken Goudsward 28:14
--back onto the ancient people.

Jim Harold 28:16

Ken Goudsward 28:17
I don't think they actually thought about God that way. I think they knew that--I think they were more familiar with the concept of aliens, and did not even have the concept of God that we do. And that's--that's based on my readings of the Sumerian literatures as well as other--other mythologies. And so, when we read these ancient stories, we totally missed the point. And we're, we're calling them Gods, but they don't even have the word God. And they are talking about characters in a story that--that these characters are doing, and the things that they're doing, are not God like things. They are--they are very human like, or animal like, or, you know, whatever, alien like, in the way that people have their own agendas. People have their strengths and weaknesses. And these are the kinds of things that are always characteristic of the ancient myths and legends that that have been passed down to us. They are never an omniscient, all knowing, all caring, all loving God. That's not a concept that people even--even had, like even thought of, I don't think. Now, that of course, that didn't come from nowhere. So that evolved gradually and you begin to see traces of that concept. You can see some of the--some of that in some of the Egyptian culture especially when you look at the evolution of Ra, and Amman and the Atum. And so especially the--around the--the concepts that--that were really wrestled with, through the, around the period of King Tut. And specifically, the two generations before Tut, where King Tut's immediate predecessor--or maybe it was two before him. Anyway, there's--there's the Pharaoh Akhenaten and it's--we basically the--the kind of the common knowledge is how we interpret is that Akhenaten changed the Egyptian culture to create monotheism. And so essentially before that there was no--there was no idea that there was one God. However, that, I think that--even that is oversimplification because I don't think that--we're still using our definition of God and our definition of monotheism. And it doesn't exactly jive with what Akhenaten was doing. So it's always more complicated, nothing is simple. And we only see what we--what we see from what we know. And what we know right now is based on a whole lot of assumptions that we don't even think about, and aren't even aware that--that they're there.

Jim Harold 31:44
Now, is there a vivid example that you could share with us that literally sounds almost like it's torn out of the--the pages of a MUFON Report these days? One in the Bible that really just--this is a --his is definitely a UFO report?

Ken Goudsward 32:02
That's a great question. If you look at Ezekiel and Isaiah, and you read--you have to read the entirety of those two books, which is going to be a drag, because they have--they have--they--a lot of them, their message is very political, and not--not really possible to understand because they're they're talking about politics from 500 BC. Well, I don't know what was going on at 500 BC enough, right? So if you can, you kind of have to skip those parts. Because honestly, those aren't really important, but a lot of people get--a lot of people take those as the important parts, because these guys are seen as prophets. And so people interpret those stories as something that we need to know because it's going to affect our future, which may or may not be true, and I won't get into that. But so--so there's those parts of their books. But then framing those, there's the okay, this is what I saw. So there's the, this is what the Lord told me parts. And then there's the part before that. And those are the interesting parts to me. Because if you look at those parts, so Ezekiel one, Ezekiel 10, and a couple of parts in Isaiah, which I can't remember which chapters. Basically, when you read those chapters, they sound very different. They--you can't tell that they're talking about the same thing, until you start to dig into some of the Hebrew words. And then you--and which I do in my book. And I make the case that--that all of these explanations and descriptions are sort of different perspectives over time, and from two different people about the same thing, because Ezekiel sees a thing that he writes down in great detail, but he has no clue what it is. So then, a few years later, he sees it again. And he's like, Oh, it's this thing again. And he adds a little bit of different detail, because his perspective is a little bit different. But it's not until 10--10 years later, 15 years later, he has another encounter. And this time, he is picked up and moved from Babylon to Jerusalem, which is like 1000 miles or something like that, like it's a long way. And suddenly he's transported so--it doesn't--it doesn't say that he suddenly is there. It says, well, it is, it's like, there's enough wiggle room in there that it could be like one of these TikTok UFOs or, or it could be teleport--teleportation. But he--he's very clear that he is transported 1000--1000 miles or hundreds of miles at least. And--and when when he's describing what he sees in Jerusalem, things start to click for him because in--in Jerusalem he is--he is told to walk into the temple, which is very strange, because in the temple in Jerusalem, you're not allowed to go in there, unless you're a priest, which Ezekiel was not. He was not even part of the correct tribe and clan, to be a priest, he was not eligible. And so, but he goes into this temple, not only that, he goes into the Holy of Holies, which no one's allowed to go into, except for one high priest one day, per year. And what what's inside of that Holy of Holies, is the Ark of the Covenant, and the Cherubim. So now, Ezekiel is able to see with his own eyes, these objects that he's heard about, and that he's been taught about, and through his--his teachings in the Torah, as--as he's been raised as a Jew. And so there's all these conceptual things that he's very aware of, but has never seen, because keep in mind that Jews were not allowed to make drawings, or pictures, or engravings, or statues or anything. One of the 10 commandments. In facts--in fact, Christians are not allowed to either. So as I'm staring at my computer screen right now, and I see a picture of Jim Harold, and I see a picture of Ken Goudsward, I'm actually breaking one of the 10 commandments. So it's kind of funny that we, we tend to just ignore certain parts of the Bible. But anyway, the--so here's Isaiah, or sorry, Ezekiel, and he's--he's standing in the temple. And he, he has just been transported--transported there by a loud, noisy flying object with lights flashing, and all this weird s*** going on. And now he's putting--he's able to put two and two together finally, for his experiences over the last 20 years, because he's seen several of these UFOs, or he's seen the same UFO, possibly several times. And suddenly, he has this new--bunch of new information, because he sees what's in the temple. And he puts it all together. And when he does that, the way he writes, it isn't super clear to us, because basically, he's, he's just, you know, writing his own journal, I think he's saying, oh, this is what happened, right? I don't think that necessarily, he knew that he was gonna need to make this obvious to explain the UFO phenomenon to us 2500 years later. But nevertheless, he does give us that enough detail to do--do that if we know where to look. So based on those experiences, and reading them as the same phenomenon, you really start to get a clearer picture of what's happening. And so that is how I got to some of the conclusions that I--that I--that I get to, especially around the cherubim and some of the possible technological aspects of the Ark of the Covenant and things like that. So you--just based on one encounter, or one chapter. No, you can't tell you. It's very strange. And this is part of the problem because we're used to reading the Bible in very small chunks. Many years ago, I--I decided that no, I'm not going to ever read one verse. I'm going to always read the chapter at least.

Jim Harold 39:27
Because you missed the context.

Ken Goudsward 39:29
Yeah, exactly.

Jim Harold 39:31
Well, it's been an absolutely fascinating discussion. We could literally talk about hours for this, but I get folks need to pick up the book UFOs in the Bible, if they're interested in hearing Ken's thoughts on this, very interesting indeed. Ken Goudsward has been our guest. Ken, where can people find the book and learn more about this fascinating topic?

Ken Goudsward 39:56
Yeah. So it's on Amazon and it's available to order through your local bookstore. They probably don't have it on the shelf but they can order it in. It's also on my website which is and if you go to it'll take you right to it. Or just Google my name, Ken Goudsward. It's G O U R D S W A R D and I'm sure you'll find you'll find me on there. I have a few other projects as well, which may interest you but the--I've got UFOs in the Bible, I've got magic in the Bible. I've got a commentary on the Sumerian/Akkadian Enuma Elish. And I also have a couple of hilarious dark comedy novels and some sci-fi poetry.

Jim Harold 40:49
Excellent, excellent. I hope everybody checks it out. The subject has been UFOs in the Bible. Ken, thank you for joining us today on the show.

Ken Goudsward 40:58
Thanks a lot, Jim.

Jim Harold 40:59
And thank you for tuning in. I'll talk to you next time. Until then keep your eye to the sky. Bye bye, everybody.

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